Wednesday, January 20, 2010

If I were on "Deep in Scripture"...

I think I would choose these passages to talk about with Marcus Grodi:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God — not because of works, lest any man should boast.  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Romans 7:4)

And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. (2 Corinthians 9:8)

And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. (Colossians 1:9-10)
If I had to pare it down, I would choose Ephesians and 2 Corinthians, but really, all four excerpts together paint the picture:
  • We are saved, not by good works, but for good works
  • God has prepared these good works for us ahead of time:  they are His will for us
  • We are enabled to carry out these good works through Christ's Resurrection
  • God provides for us that we may carry out these good works and bear fruit for God

14 comments:

laymond said...

Jeff; I asked this question of Paul G. on his blog now if you don't mine I would like your opinion also.

What was the message contained within the gospel, and for whom was it intended?

laymond said...

Jeff; could you also explain just what is meant, when a Catholic, says Jesus is God.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

Laymond, the Gospel (the "good news") can be summed up in many ways. I like Jesus' words in Luke 4 as He reads from the scroll of Isaiah.

The Gospel message begins, ultimately, with the message of the angel Gabriel: "be not afraid". The Gospel is not about fear, but about relief.

The Gospel explains to us that we are sinners, and we must repent from our sin and believe in Jesus, the Son of God, Whom the Father sent to save us from our sins. Believing in Jesus, of course, entails obeying Him too. The Gospel is about life through grace, if I had to put it really succinctly. But I'm not a very good distiller of the Gospel down to a brief "message".

The Gospel is for everyone, Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, rich or poor, etc., because we are all sinners in need of salvation.

laymond said...

Jeff; as I read your explanation of the Gospel, it is a message sent to mankind all of us as how we can enter the kingdom, therefore enjoying everlasting life with God.

And Jesus was the example we are to follow. am I right so far ? if not please correct me where I have misunderstood you.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

Catholics, as you probably know, believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, which was formally drawn up at earliest ecumenical councils of the Church beginning with Nicaea.

We believe that God is ONE God in THREE Persons: He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are equal in divinity, but they are distinct Persons: the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

We believe that it was the Person of God the Son (also called 'the Word') Who took flesh and dwelt among us; this is the Incarnation, the "enfleshing" of God. The Son did not change at all in His divinity, but joined to Himself a human nature: this was a unique union of a Divine Person (the Son) with a human nature (body, blood, soul, intellect, will, etc.). Conversely, we are human persons, and we will eventually partake of the divine nature. (cf. 2 Pet 1:4)

So then, we believe that Jesus is ONE Person, a Divine Person, Who also has a human nature. Jesus IS God the Son.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

"a message sent to mankind all of us as how we can enter the kingdom, therefore enjoying everlasting life with God"

That's a good summary, yes. The Gospel is about adoption as children of God.

"And Jesus was the example we are to follow."

Jesus was not simply the example to follow; that is, Jesus was not just a perfect human, our exemplar and ideal. Jesus is MORE than a man: Jesus is the Word-made-flesh. If the Word is God, and God cannot change, then the Word cannot cease to be God when It takes on flesh. This is why St. Thomas could say "My Lord and my God" to Jesus without blaspheming. This is why Jesus could say "before Abraham was, I AM" without blaspheming (or lying).

While the human nature of Jesus had a beginning in time (the Blessed Virgin Mary's conception of Him in her womb), His Person is co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. In terms of His humanity, Jesus has a temporal "beginning", but in terms of His Divinity, Jesus has always existed, because Jesus is God. That is why He can say "before Abraham was, I AM" and He can talk about "the glory which [He] had with [the Father] before the world was made."

I'm not sure how much you know about the doctrine of the Trinity; I don't want to presume anything, so let me use the same line of reasoning I used on Paul's blog.

God is Love. (1 Jn 4:8)

As the Father loves the Son, so the Son loves us, and the Son commands us to love one another as He loves us. (John 15:9,12)

That is, the way God loves is the ideal: we should love as God loves. Is God's love a selfish love, a love of self? If so, that means that is the ideal for us: a selfish love, a love of self.

But no, God's love is a love for ANOTHER. But if God is Love, if God in His eternity (before ANYTHING was created) is Love, that means God must have had some "other" to love. Because that "other" existed before all of creation, that "other" must also be God, but in such a way that God loving God is not a selfish love.

This is why the plurality of Persons in God is a necessity, so that God can truly be love.

(This might sound a bit strange, but it basically comes down to this: God the Father loves God the Son, and God the Son loves God the Father, and that love between them is, Itself, the Holy Spirit.)

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

Let me provide another reasoning from Scripture as to why Jesus is divine, why Jesus IS God the Son (and not just "the Son of God").

Jesus says "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

God is eternal and He cannot die. That means that God cannot "lay down his life". That would mean that Jesus' death was not God laying down His own life, but God laying down someone else's life. That would mean MAN's capacity for love is higher than God's capacity for love! Surely that cannot be!

In Jesus Christ, though, God and man are one: in the Person of the Son, God can "lay down his life" in virtue of His human nature. Thus, God can manifest that greatest of loves.

laymond said...

Jeff, if Jesus was given as the perfect man, and an example of what God wants man to be, (I believe this is the reason for the gospel,to show man how to enter the kingdom) why would God not use a man, to prove a man can do this, instead of using a god, to show man can do this, we know God can do whatever he wishes, but that has nothing to do with me a mortal.
If you find time read the blog "not so common" at my blog. I don't accept comments on that blog, but you can comment on "My other blog" or back here on yours and I will see it.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

I'll read your blog later (I'm at work right now). Let me answer your question from your last comment, though:

"why would God not use a man, to prove a man can do this, instead of using a god, to show man can do this, we know God can do whatever he wishes, but that has nothing to do with me a mortal."

(At first, I wrote this as my answer: Jesus Himself answered that question: "What is impossible with men is possible with God." (Luke 18:27) But then I realized that such an answer was not sufficient.)

Sure, God could have done that with just a man, but Scripture attests that Jesus was not simply a man, nor even just a perfect man. Scripture states that Jesus existed before He was man: He is the Word (John 1:1), and the Word took on flesh (John 1:14), and the Father created all things through Him (Col 1:16ff; Heb 1:2).

God is the perfect teacher, is He not? But God does not obey anyone, so how can He show us what it means to be obedient? He can only demand obedience from us, not show us what being obedient is, Himself. But God the Son, who is obedient to His Father, shows us what it means to be obedient to God: He takes on human flesh and manifests for us temporally and physically His eternal and spiritual obedience to the Father. Thus, God can show us what it means to obey: God the Son knows obedience to God the Father, and that obedience is revealed to us by means of the Son's humanity.

laymond said...

Jeff, that is the folly of this whole thing assuming John was saying the word was anything except just that logos/word no where in scripture is logos used as a person, it is always used as "word" the word was with God in the beginning, the word was god, (the word is all powerful)in no way refers to a person, not the son, not Jesus, it was simply God's power through the spoken word.and later the word was with the son, the power of God's word was given for the son to use, Ask Jesus himself, he said I do nothing of my own, the power of God working through his son (a man) is the embodiment of the word. The word in the flesh. not God in the flesh. Jeff, don't you think that if John meant to say Jesus is God, it would have been mentioned by at least one other of the gospel writers? I believe the old testament states God said "I was alone, no other was with me"

laymond said...

Isa:44:6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa:44:8: Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jeff; do you still insist that Jesus " God the Son" was with God at creation, after reading.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
(alone and by myself)
please explain.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

Laymond, Jesus says that He was with the Father before the world began. The letter to the Colossians and the letter to the Hebrews says that the world was created through the Son.

When God says He does something "alone", it means it was only God. IF God is more than one Person, then it's perfectly reasonable for the Son to have been with the Father.

The book of Revelation says that the Father is the alpha and the omega, and Jesus says the same about Himself.

I don't think it is folly to believe that the Word is a Person. And no, just because something is only mentioned by ONE evangelist, that does not make me doubt it.

laymond said...

Jeff said, "When God says He does something "alone", it means it was only God. IF God is more than one Person, then it's perfectly reasonable for the Son to have been with the Father."

Jeff, as you emphasized "IF" God is more than one person, do these persons have a designated, spokesperson. and if they don't how do you know who is speaking, and if they do is that person claiming all the glory? in Isa:44
and what about the third person, he is never mentioned in the story of creation. was he there and just did not even receive a tiny part of the glory? he had no part to play. The Trinity says they all play the same part,all equal.

Jeffrey Pinyan said...

"IF God is more than one person, do these persons have a designated, spokesperson."

God speaks for Himself. The Father can speak "on His own", or He can speak by His Word, or He can speak through His Spirit.

"and what about the third person, he is never mentioned in the story of creation."

Sure He is. Genesis 1:1-3 gives us a glimpse of the Father creating by the presence of His Spirit (ruah, meaning "spirit" or "breath") which hovered over the waters, and by the power of His Word by which He spoke the very light into being.

"I will sing to my God a new song: O Lord, thou are great and glorious, wonderful in strength, invincible. Let all thy creatures serve thee, for thou didst SPEAK, and they were made. Thou didst send forth thy SPIRIT, and it formed them; there is none that can resist thy voice." (Judith 16:13-14)

"When thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT, they are created; and thou renewest the face of the ground." (Psalm 104:30)

"By faith we understand that the world was created by the WORD of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear." (Hebrews 11:3)